43arhitektov bilten • architect's bulletin • 224 • 225 • 226 • 227 »Mama, v kateri državi živimo?«1 Intervju s Sanjo Horvatinčić / "Mum, in which country do we live?"1 Interview with Sanja Horvatinčić Martin Reichert Sanja Horvatinčić je umetnostna zgodovinarka, rojena v nekdanji Jugoslaviji; raziskuje povojne protifašistične spomenike, ki jih je postavila generacija njenega starega očeta. Čeprav je bil širši družbeni in zgodovinski kontekst izvora in gradnje spomenikov pred letom dni predstavljen v muzeju MoMA v New Yorku, mnoge izmed teh spomenikov različne korporacije še vedno izkoriščajo za svoje namene. Zadnji tak primer je oglas za nemško pivo, ki so ga posneli na Hrvaškem za tako imenovani korporativni resničnostni šov. Sanja Horvatinčić art historian researching post-war antifascist memorials erected by her grandfathers' generation, was born as Yugoslavia was winding down. Even though a wider social and historical context of the monuments’ origin and construction was exhibited in New York's MoMA a year ago, many of them are still being devastated or exploited by various corporations. The most recent example is an advertisement for German beer made for a corporate reality show filmed in Croatia. Martin Reichert: Ms Horvatinčić, what is your first childhood memory? Sanja Horvatinčić: A summer's day. The summers I spent in Istria in an old stone farmhouse. It belonged to the parents of my mother's friend and was not next to the coast but in the middle of nature, where Istrian peasants used to live. There was no electricity or water supply, and I remember ex- ploring the area. Old ruined houses, wild animals and local legends - an adventure. When was this? I was born in 1986, so it must have been at the end of the eighties or in the early nineties. Precisely during the time of the Yugoslav decline. The war in Croatia began in 1991 ... ... yes, but I have no memory of those news reaching us there. So you could say that Yugoslavia is a happy childhood memory? I remember once asking my mother which country we live in. And she said, "Yugoslavia", even though it may already have disintegrated. Her answer however, revealed the arbitrariness of the very concept of national identity and borders, as well as that of historical periodisation. My own memories of Yugoslavia are mainly second-hand, and they are not so much related to the federal statehood as to socialism, a system that benefited the under- privileged, the working class, such as my grandparents. What did your mother do for a living? My mother, Nada Horvatinčić, worked all her life at the Institute Ruđer Bošković, the main scientific institution in Croatia, founded in 1950 in Za- greb. She is a chemist. A steady scientific career that would hardly be pos- sible today. 1 Z avtorjevo privolitvijo objavljeno v Tageszeitung Berlin. 1 Published in Tageszeitung Berlin; reproduced with the permis- sion of the author. Gospa Horvatinčić, kateri je vaš najzgodnejši spomin iz otroštva? Poletni dan. Poletni dnevi, ki sem jih preživela v stari kamniti istrski hiši, ki je bila v lasti staršev osebe, s katero je prijateljevala moja mama. Hiša ni stala prav na obali, pač pa sredi narave, kjer so nekoč živeli istrski pastirji. V njej ni bilo niti elektrike niti vode. Spominjam se, da sem raziskovala okolico, kjer so bile stare razpadajoče hiše, divje živali in lokalne legende. To je bila zame prava pustolovščina. In kdaj je to bilo? Rojena sem bila leta 1986, torej se je to dogajalo proti koncu osemdesetih, v zgodnjih devetdesetih letih. Ravno v obdobju razpada nekdanje Jugoslavije. Vojna na Hrvaškem se je začela leta 1991 … ... da, vendar se ne spomnim, da bi tam slišali te novice. Torej bi lahko rekli, da vam Jugoslavija pomeni srečne spomine iz otroštva? Spominjam se, da sem nekoč mamo vprašala, v kateri državi živimo. Odgo- vorila je, da v Jugoslaviji. Čeprav je Jugoslavija morda v tistem času že raz- padla. Njen odgovor je pravzaprav razodel relativnost samega koncepta nacionalne identitete in meja, pa tudi relativnost zgodovinske periodizaci- je. Moji spomini na Jugoslavijo niso toliko vezani na federalno državo, pač pa na socializem, sistem, ki je podpiral deprivilegirane sloje in delavski ra- zred, kamor so sodili tudi moji stari starši. Kakšen poklic pa je imela vaša mama? Moja mama, Nada Horvatinčić, je delala na Inštitutu Ruđer Bošković, v najpomembnejši hrvaški znanstveni instituciji, ki je bila ustanovljena leta 1950 v Zagrebu. Po poklicu je kemičarka in je imela stabilno znanstveno kariero, kakršna bi bila danes skorajda nemogoča. Martin Reichert 44 arhitektov bilten • architect's bulletin • 224 • 225 • 226 • 227 In what way? Today, most scientists work in precarious, insecure conditions. It's a system of temporary contracts and stiff competition. She already had a scholar- ship as a student and was hired by the Institute immediately after gradua- tion, and she was able to stay on for the length of her career. As a single mother, she did not have to worry about losing her job, and there was an absence of any highly competitive pressure. She also travelled a lot to con- ferences abroad. With your being a historian, memories are your livelihood; you specialise in a culture of remembrance and you are currently researching the antifascist memorials erected by your grandparents' generation? Yes, my mother's father was a Partisan. First, he was recruited as a boy for the Croatian Home Guard, Domobrani, the regular army of Croatia, which at that time was a puppet state of Nazi Germany. He was then put on a train to Germany, but managed to jump off and escaped into the woods. There he came in contact with Partisans and became a messenger. Later, after the end of the war, he became a lifelong member of the Communist Party. What kind of a person was he? He was a worker, a plumber. He did not talk much about the war, but it was always clear to me that he had been on the right side. It was the same with my grandmother's family in Čabar, near the Slovenian border. My father's family, which I don't know much about, is Serbian. Many members of that side of the family were killed as civilians in the most brutal ways, right at the beginning of the war, because of the fascist ideology, which here was not only anti-Semitic and anti-Communist, but also anti-Serbian. Conflicts about history still persist to this day, and divide families? Not so much within my family, but in general yes, in Croatia families often have conflicted family stories. Who built the memorials of the post-war period, which you are researching? Statistically, it was mostly local initiatives led by former partisans, veter- ans, often together with youth organisations. These monuments, usually smaller in scale, can be seen everywhere, in villages, along country roads. And then there are the larger memorials commemorating battles and great personalities, which were commissioned by veterans' organisations of the appropriate Yugoslav republic or by Communist Party committees. However, even monuments which were commissioned on the federal level, such as the monument to the Battle of Sutjeska or the Victory at the Syr- mian Front, were to a significant degree financed by individual donations, or those of worker collectives. Were this then Tito's memorials? This is something you can read these days in foreign tourist blogs. If you take Tito as the metonym of both Partisan resistance and the 45 years of socialist system that followed, that is if you decide to reduce such a com- plex history to one person, then it may be true. Having more important things to take care of, Josip Broz was hardly concerned with memorials, especially in terms of their design or aesthetics. But of course, they were important as visible agents of memory politics, as mementos of the narra- tives and political concepts forming the foundations of the state: the Peo- ple's Liberation Struggle, the socialist revolution, the symbols of "brother- hood and unity" among the Yugoslav peoples, and of the martyrdom of brave individuals and innocent victims of the fascist ideology. We should also not forget that the antifascist, self-liberation narratives importantly and indisputably legitimised Tito's leadership of Yugoslavia during the Cold War internationally. But monuments belonged to local and political com- munities, which still identify with them. Memorials were part of Yugoslav identity? Yes, just as memorials and monuments around the world are always part of the national of identity, or some other form. They did shape an iden- tity, but its boundaries went beyond the category of the national because Zakaj? Danes večina znanstvenikov dela v negotovih, prekarnih pogojih. Gre za sistem začasnih pogodb in intenzivnega rivalstva. Moja mama je že v času študija od inštituta prejemala štipendijo, in ko je diplomirala, je tam dobila delo – in na inštitutu je lahko ostala vse življenje. Kot materi samohranilki se ji ni bilo treba bati, da bi izgubila delo. Poleg tega pa tudi ni bila pod nobenimi pritiski, kar zadeva tekmovalnost in rivalstvo. Veliko je tudi poto- vala v tujino, kjer se je udeleževala različnih konferenc. Glede na to, da ste zgodovinarka, so spomini pravzaprav vaš kruh; specializirani ste za področje kulture spominjanja in trenutno se ukvarjate z raziskovanjem protifašističnih spomenikov, ki jih je postavila generacija vaših starih staršev. Da, moj dedek po mamini strani je bil partizan. V začetku so ga kot dečka sicer rekrutirali domobranci, predstavniki oboroženih sil Hrvaške, ki je bila v tistem času nacistična marionetna država. Dedku je uspelo skočiti z vlaka, ki je bil namenjen v Nemčijo, in pobegniti v gozdove. Tam je stopil v stik s partizani, za katere je delal kot kurir. Kasneje, po vojni, je postal član komu- nistične partije, katere član je bil nato vse svoje življenje. Kakšen človek pa je bil vaš dedek? Bil je delavec, klepar. O vojni ni kaj dosti govoril, vendar sem se zavedala tega, da je bil na pravi strani. Podobno je bilo z družino moje babice, ki je živela v Čabru, blizu slovenske meje. Družina mojega očeta, o kateri ne vem prav dosti, izvira iz Srbije. Mnoge člane njegove družine so že takoj na začetku vojne pobili kot civiliste, na brutalne načine, in sicer zaradi fašistič- ne ideologije, ki ni bila zgolj protisemitska in protikomunistična, ampak tudi protisrbska. Nesoglasja in trenja glede zgodovine so v mnogih družinah še vedno prisotna. V naši družini teh nesoglasij ni, v splošnem pa drži, da imajo mnoge dru- žine na Hrvaškem v svojih družinskih zgodbah precej tovrstnih sporov in konfliktov. Kdo je zgradil povojne spomenike, ki jih raziskujete? Statistično so bili ti spomeniki zgrajeni pretežno na osnovi lokalnih iniciativ in na pobudo nekdanjih partizanov. To so bili veterani, ki so sodelovali z mladinskimi organizacijami. Te, pogosto nekoliko manjše spomenike lahko vidimo povsod, v vaseh, ob vaških poteh. Obstajajo pa tudi večji spomeni- ki, ki ponazarjajo partizanske boje in velike osebnosti. Te spomenike so naročile posamezne republiške veteranske organizacije ali komiteji komu- nistične partije. Vendar so bili celo takšni spomeniki, ki so jih naročili na zvezni ravni, kot sta na primer spomenik padlim borcem bitke na Sutjeski ali spomenik borcem sremske fronte, v veliki meri financirani s pomočjo donacij, ki so jih prispevali posamezniki ali delavska združenja. Torej so bili to Titovi spomeniki? To lahko danes preberete v tujih turističnih blogih. Če pojmujete Tita kot nekoga, ki pooseblja tako partizansko odporniško gibanje kot tudi 45 let povojnega socialističnega sistema, če se torej odločite tako kompleksno zgodovino zreducirati na eno samo osebo, potem to morda res drži. A glede na to, da se je Josip Broz ukvarjal z mnogo pomembnejšimi stvarmi, se spo- menikom najverjetneje ni kaj dosti posvečal, še posebej kar zadeva njihovo obliko ali videz. Spomeniki pa so bili seveda pomembni kot vidni simboli političnega spomina in kot opomniki glede zgodb in političnih konceptov, na katerih je temeljila država. Predstavljali so osvobodilni boj, socialistično revolucijo, simbole jugoslovanskega bratstva in enotnosti ter trpljenje po- gumnih posameznikov in nedolžnih žrtev fašistične ideologije. Pri tem pa ne smemo pozabiti tudi na to, da so protifašistične, samoosvoboditvene zgod- be v času hladne vojne pomenile pomembno in nesporno mednarodno jamstvo za Titovo vodenje Jugoslavije. Vendar so spomeniki pripadali lokal- nim in političnim skupnostim in s temi skupnostmi se jih še vedno povezuje. Ali so spomeniki predstavljali del jugoslovanske identitete? Da, tako kot ostali spomeniki po svetu, ki vedno predstavljajo del nacional- ne ali kakšne druge identitete. Spomeniki so predstavljali identiteto, katere Skupno. Posebno. Posamično. / Shared. Particular. Individual. 45arhitektov bilten • architect's bulletin • 224 • 225 • 226 • 227 Martin Reichert Yugoslavia was a multinational federation, whereas antifascism and the socialist revolution are international political concepts. In what way were these monuments unique or specific in their form? They are specific in so far as the official position of culture in Yugoslavia began to change after the break between Tito and Stalin in 1948. From the mid-1950s, artists and architects enjoyed a comparatively greater level of autonomy in the choice of their formal approaches - and so they could also experiment with the memorials. Beyond repressive formalism debates ... ... and yet, there was the internal Communist political repression that was tied to that dramatic political shift. Today, the political prison at Croatian island Goli Otok, which used to be a taboo topic, is well known and written about. It was a repressive gulag-like camp for people accused of Stalinist views in the period between 1949 and 1956. At the time, there were also fervent debates in Yugoslavia about what the split from Stalin should mean for cultural production and what role art and culture should play in Yugoslav society. And? Well, in a way, that always remained an open question. Also, because Yu- goslavia was undergoing a "constant reform", there were constant at- tempts to reconcile the political system with the idea of self-management, introduced in the early 1950s. And the culture, including the memory cul- ture, was part of this discussion. In principle, this was an ideological de- bate that had begun in the inter-war period, and continued during and after the war. The monuments are coming back as an item of interest today. What happened to them after the disintegration of Yugoslavia? It depends on the region. In Croatia, for example, there was a five-year war that mainly took place in areas of mixed ethnicity. The monuments located in war zones were often destroyed, but even in the context where there were no immediate war operations, e.g. in Zagreb or Split, they were re- moved as symbols of the "old rule" despite the fact that they were not as explicit in affirming the Communist ideology as elsewhere in former social- ist countries. Most of the monuments, including the destroyed ones, were dedicated to war casualties, with long lists of names inscribed on them. In many cases, the memory of those people was obliterated and never re- turned to public space. In Slovenia, for example, most monuments are still intact. Yes, because the Slovene statehood in the early nineties was based on the victory of the Partisans over fascism, while in Croatia there were – and still are – serious attempts from the far right to invoke the fascist, so-called “Independent State of Croatia” and to regard this Nazi puppet state as the foundation of the current state. Under such extreme nationalistic views, every form of antifascism became suspect. It can be compared to the de- bate over Franco's grave of and the legacy of fascism in present-day Spain. That is also a mass grave, for the dead on both sides of the Spanish Civil War. Yes, some high-ranking Croatian politicians have openly stated that they feel inspired by Franco - you just dump all your bones together and then there's silence and "reconciliation". This did not happen, fortunately. But what happened instead is that the bones of the partisans have been com- pletely forgotten, some of their remains have even been destroyed. To forget? One has to ask: who are the agents of this forgetting? Who has an interest in it? And who in turn claims this legacy? In direct contact with the locals, one quickly realises that there are strong references present in almost every community and family, memories of the traumatic and ground- breaking events of World War 2. And there's still an appreciation of the monuments, despite the official memory politics. meje so presegale kategorijo nacionalnega, ker je bila Jugoslavija večnacio- nalna federacija, medtem ko sta protifašizem in socialistična revolucija mednarodna politična koncepta. Na kakšen način so bili ti spomeniki v svoji obliki posebni ali edinstveni? Posebni so bili zaradi takratne narave jugoslovanske kulture, ki se je po razkolu med Titom in Stalinom leta 1948 začela spreminjati. Od sredine petdesetih let naprej so bili umetniki in arhitekti deležni večje avtonomi- je pri izbiri svojih formalnih pristopov in so zato lahko s spomeniki več eksperimentirali. In se tudi distancirali od represivnih formalističnih diskusij … ... pa vendarle je obstajala nekakšna notranja komunistična politična re- presija, ki je bila povezana s takratnim dramatičnim političnim preobra- tom. Zloglasni zapor za politične zapornike na hrvaškem Golem otoku je bil nekoč tabu tema, danes pa vsi vedo, da je ta zapor obstajal, in o tej temi se tudi veliko piše. Zapor je bil pravzaprav narejen po vzoru represivnih sov- jetskih delovnih taborišč, tako imenovanih gulagov, in je bil namenjen po- sameznikom, ki so bili v obdobju med letoma 1949 in 1956 obtoženi stali- nističnih nazorov. V tistem času so se v Jugoslaviji razvnele tudi razprave glede tega, kaj naj bi odmik od Stalina pravzaprav sploh pomenil za kultur- no produkcijo in kakšno vlogo naj bi imeli umetnost in kultura v takratni Jugoslaviji. In? Ta tema je na neki način vedno pomenila odprto vprašanje. Tudi zato, ker so se v Jugoslaviji odvijale nenehne »reforme«, nenehni poskusi, da bi po- litični sistem uskladili z idejo o samoupravljanju, ki so jo uvedli v zgodnjih petdesetih letih. In kultura, vključno s kulturo spominjanja, je bila del te diskusije. V osnovi je šlo za ideološko diskusijo, ki se je začela v obdobju med obema vojnama in se nadaljevala med vojno in po njej. V današnjem času vlada za spomenike čedalje večje zanimanje. Kaj se je zgodilo z njimi po razpadu Jugoslavije? Odvisno od tega, o kateri regiji govorimo. Na Hrvaškem, na primer, se je petletna vojna odvijala predvsem na etnično mešanih področjih. Spomeni- ki, ki so stali na vojnih območjih, so bili pogosto uničeni. Celo v mestih, kot sta Zagreb in Split, kjer ni bilo nobenih bojev, so bili spomeniki odstranjeni, saj so pomenili simbole stare ureditve. In to kljub dejstvu, da ti spomeniki, v primerjavi s tistimi v ostalih nekdanjih komunističnih državah, niso tako zelo eksplicitno predstavljali komunistične ideologije. Spomeniki, vključno s tistimi, ki so bili uničeni, so bili posvečeni vojnim žrtvam in nanje so bili vklesani dolgi seznami imen padlih za svobodo. V mnogih primerih je bil spomin na te ljudi za večno izbrisan. V Sloveniji, na primer, je večina spomenikov ostala nedotaknjenih. Drži, to pa zato, ker je slovenska suverenost v zgodnjih devetdesetih letih temeljila na zmagi partizanov nad fašizmom, na Hrvaškem pa so bili in še vedno obstajajo resni poskusi skrajne desnice, da bi obudila fašistično Ne- odvisno državo Hrvaško. Ta nekdanja nacistična marionetna država naj bi, v skladu z desničarsko ideologijo, pomenila temelje sedanje države. V oko- lju, kjer vladajo tako ekstremistične nacionalistične težnje, je protifašistič- na miselnost sumljiva in nezaželena. To lahko primerjamo s polemikami glede Francovega groba in fašistične zapuščine v današnji Španiji. Ta grob pomeni množično grobišče za vse, ki so v španski državljanski vojni umrli na obeh straneh. Da, a vendarle so nekateri visoki politični funkcionarji Hrvaške iskreno de- jali, da jih Franco navdihuje – vse kosti preprosto zmečete skupaj in potem nastopi »sprava«. To se na srečo ni zgodilo, a namesto tega so številni padli partizani utonili v pozabo, njihovi posmrtni ostanki pa so bili celo uničeni. Da bi pozabili? Vprašati se moramo, kdo so tisti, ki zastopajo gonilne sile tega pozabljanja spominov na preteklost. Kdo so tisti, ki imajo pri tem ključne interese? In kdo so posledično tisti, ki si pri tem lastijo zasluge? V neposrednem stiku z 46 arhitektov bilten • architect's bulletin • 224 • 225 • 226 • 227 In that case, you could just rebuild the destroyed monuments. That's not easy to do if something has already been destroyed. Such a re- construction also requires active political commitment. And if there is no state funding or support, people must rely on self-organising and the ini- tiative from below. The efforts to rebuild the monuments in Croatia as well as in some other parts of former Yugoslavia have become grassroots and counter-hegemonic, a complete opposite of when they were first installed in the public space as part of the official narrative of the past. So, does the civil society have to take care of it? I'd rather refer to these agents as self-organised communities, either bound by shared histories and collective memories or by common political ideas. In this regard, the new attention given to Yugoslav memorials online makes me a little more optimistic. Even abroad, there are now people who are in- terested in Yugoslav memorials, and who consider them as part of their heritage: people from Spain or Germany, for example, who react in horror when symbols of the antifascist struggle are destroyed or questioned, or when they are treated as a mere spectacle with no social meaning. In the context of the Petrova Gora memorial, a German production is being filmed at the moment. I came across the film set as it was being prepared in the monument by accident when I went there this summer with a group of American schol- ars. The first thing I saw was that someone had cleared away the rubbish, and my first thought was: that can't be good. In the building, I met workers who wanted to scare us away because the site was "private". And I learned from them that a German production company wanted to shoot a movie here. Shooting a series with the antifascist memorial done by Vojin Bakić in the early eighties as a backdrop. It seems that someone from the local government gave the production company the keys even though the area is protected cultural heritage and any commercial use of the building should adhere to conservation stand- ards and be supervised by heritage experts. The head of local government publicly claimed that such activities can be good for promoting the area in order to boost tourism, so he did not even ask for money for the scenery. The intention may have been good because the region is indeed economi- cally deprived, but I don't think that the people living in that region, who identify with this heritage, agree with this. The heritage authorities re- mained silent, and the commercial shooting continued. In the meantime, we saw a beer commercial shot at the same memorial site - after the sun- glasses fashion campaign shot at Jasenovac concentration camp, which was fortunately discontinued, I thought such situations would not be pos- sible anymore, but I'm afraid we can only expect further such projects. Petrova Gora has been a world-famous backdrop ever since it was shown in the MoMA exhibition of Yugoslav architecture in New York. After the MoMA exhibition, the Monument to the Uprising of the People of Kordun and Banija at Petrova Gora became even more famous, and a hot potato for Croatian heritage authorities. It's clear that there should be some sort of management plan for this ruined building, but it seems that open discussions on this topic are avoided, partially for obvious political reasons. What are those reasons? A renovation, for example, would mean that the state affirms the struggle of the Communist-lead partisans against fascism - to create a heritage management plan for memorial sites such as this one is a political deci- sion. So the easiest way is to leave it to the old invisible hand of the free market. In the meantime, targeted trips are offered to "spomenik" locations. The "spomenik" hype started earlier, long before the exhibition. It started with the photography project of Belgian Jan Kempenaers, with photo book lokalnimi prebivalci lahko hitro ugotovimo, da imata skoraj vsaka skupnost in družina travmatične spomine na dogodke iz druge svetovne vojne. In kljub uradnim političnim stališčem ljudje do teh spomenikov še vedno go- jijo spoštovanje. Morda bi te uničene spomenike lahko obnovili. Nečesa, kar je bilo uničeno, ni tako lahko obnoviti. Takšna prizadevanja zahtevajo tudi politično podporo. In če država finančno ničesar ne prispe- va, se morajo ljudje nekako samoorganizirati. Prizadevanja, da bi obnovili spomenike, tako na Hrvaškem kot tudi v ostalih republikah nekdanje Jugo- slavije, so bila opredeljena kot ljudska in protivladna, kar je v popolnem nasprotju s tistim, kar so ti spomeniki utelešali, ko so bili postavljeni v javni prostor kot del uradne zgodovine. Ali mora za to obnovo torej poskrbeti civilna družba? Za glavne akterje raje uporabim izraz samoorganizirane skupnosti, ne glede na to, ali so zavezani skupni zgodovini in skupnemu spominu ali političnim idejam. Opažam, da so jugoslovanski spomeniki na spletu deležni precej- šnje pozornosti, in to me navdaja z optimizmom. Celo v tujini se pojavljajo posamezniki, ki izkazujejo zanimanje za jugoslovanske spomenike in jih poj- mujejo kot del svoje dediščine: to so ljudje iz Španije ali Nemčije, ki so zgro- ženi nad uničevanjem simbolov protifašističnega boja in nad tem, da se te simbole obravnava kot senzacije, ki nimajo nobenega družbenega pomena. Trenutno v nemški produkciji nastaja film o spomeniku na Petrovi gori. Letos poleti sem povsem po naključju naletela na filmsko scenografijo, ki so jo pripravljali pri spomeniku. Tam sem bila s skupino ameriških akade- mikov. Najprej sem opazila, da je nekdo odstranil smeti, in takoj mi je prišlo na misel, da nekaj ni v redu. V zgradbi so bili delavci, ki so nas želeli odgna- ti, ker naj bi bilo tam zasebno območje. Od njih sem tudi izvedela, da na- merava nemška produkcijska hiša na tistem kraju snemati film. Snemanje filma, v katerem služi kot kulisa protifašistični spomenik, ki ga je v zgodnjih osemdesetih letih ustvaril hrvaški kipar Vojin Bakić. Kot kaže, je filmski produkcijski hiši dovolil snemanje nekdo iz vrst lokalnih oblasti, in to kljub temu, da je to področje kulturno zaščiteno, kar pomeni, da mora biti kakršnakoli njegova uporaba v komercialne namene zakonsko prepovedana, kar narekujejo standardi za ohranjanje kulturne dediščine. Predsednik lokalne skupnosti je javno izjavil, da tovrstne aktivnosti lahko prispevajo k promociji tega področja in spodbujajo turizem ter da iz tega razloga tudi ni zahteval nobenega plačila. Takšni načrti so morda res lahko dobronamerni, saj je to področje ekonomsko zapostavljeno, vendar kljub temu dvomim, da so ljudje, ki živijo na tem področju in se tudi identificira- jo s tovrstno dediščino, nad to potezo res navdušeni. Oblasti so bile tiho in snemanje se je nadaljevalo. Medtem smo lahko videli tudi reklamo za pivo, ki je bila posneta ob tem istem spomeniku. Upala sem, da se po mo- dni kampanji za sončna očala (snemanja so potekala v Jasenovcu), ki je bila na srečo ustavljena, tovrstne situacije ne bodo več ponovile. Žal pa lahko, kot kaže, pričakujemo še več takšnih projektov. Svetovno znano filmsko ozadje je bilo prikazano tudi na razstavi o jugoslovanski arhitekturi v muzeju MoMA v New Yorku. Po razstavi v muzeju MoMA v New Yorku je spomenik vstaje ljudstva Bani- je in Korduna na Petrovi gori postal še bolj znan, postal je »vroč krompir« za hrvaške organe, ki se ukvarjajo s kulturno dediščino. Očitno je, da bi morali izdelati neke vrste načrt upravljanja tega spomenika, a kot kaže, se vsi izogibajo odprtim diskusijam na to temo, delno tudi zaradi očitnih poli- tičnih razlogov. In kakšni so ti razlogi? Obnova spomenikov bi pomenila, da država priznava partizanski boj proti fašizmu pod vodstvom komunistične partije. Načrt upravljanja tovrstnih spomenikov bi temeljil na političnih odločitvah, zato je tovrstne zadeve veliko preprosteje prepustiti »nevidni roki« prostega trga. Skupno. Posebno. Posamično. / Shared. Particular. Individual. 47arhitektov bilten • architect's bulletin • 224 • 225 • 226 • 227 "Spomenik" featuring 26 photographs of Yugoslav monuments. The imag- es achieved considerable popularity online but the author did not deal with the context very much, he decided to simply assign numbers to them. They were disassociated from their names and commemorative purposes. We could claim it's a typical colonial approach: here's something weird and we do not even have a name for it ... how about "kangaroo"? On the other hand, these alluring images of the "ideological other" have attracted a lot of adventure vacationers to the sites. This is in turn the Indiana Jones approach - there's something weird to discover in the Balkans and I'll be the first to do it. But there is already a website with records of all the monuments called Spomenik Database. It is run by an American biologist who truly appreciates the memorials and has acquired an impressive amount of information about them. But at the same time, such an attitude is somewhat patronising: "You have some- thing special here and do not know how to appreciate and manage it, so I'll come and do that for you." I'm not sure he fully realises or is interested to understand the political and social complexity of this region, which has informed the current situation regarding the treatment of some of these monuments. But he does understand they are attractive enough to offer exclusive tourist tours. Is this not also a kind of remembrance culture? I wish I could give a positive answer to this. I'm afraid that it's just another tourist niche or a trend, not unlike tours that take you to remote islands in the Adriatic, or medieval churches. It's just a more original version, but with one crucial difference: they are memorials reminiscent of tragic and traumatic historical events from not that long ago. Often, they are tombs and ossuaries, and there are survivors who are still alive. It's similar to is- sues surrounding Holocaust selfies and memorabilia. The Eisenman Holocaust Memorial is also an attraction, but people do selfies jumping on it. The Eisenman Memorial is not endangered nor is its message ever brought into question. I would not mind if there was controlled tourism that would allow for revenue to flow into the conservation and public education pro- grammes. Are you in contact with the ministry? It has been very difficult, if not impossible, to connect and apply my re- search to practical heritage work regarding the monuments. However, it is a structural problem that does not only affect this particular type of herit- age. Collaboration often happens on individual level with some of the her- itage experts working in conservation departments. All I know is that there is an ongoing internal revision process aiming to reduce the number of listed World War 2 monuments. Many monuments are not even on the list, which is now to be shortened anyway. Has the MoMA exhibition had no effect? I was part of the Advisory Board of this exhibition, not of the curating team. I wish the exhibition could depict a fuller scope of the monuments' diversity, and deal more with their social meaning as places of memory today, rather than only focus on exceptional architectural pieces. But then it would have to be a different exhibition overall, which I am not sure would be possible to present at the MoMA. The issue of the culture of re- membrance or an open confrontation with the current politics responsible for the dire state of the heritage presented was difficult to address within the framework of this exhibition, which is exceptional and important in many other ways. If nothing else, more people in the world now know that there was Yugoslavian modernist architecture. The exhibition was undoubtedly a great success for the affirmation of the Yugoslav modernist architectural heritage on the global level, and it can Na voljo so tudi vodeni izleti k spomeniku. Ves tale pomp s spomeniki se je začel že pred razstavo v muzeju MoMA. Vse skupaj se je začelo s fotografskim projektom belgijskega fotografa Jana Kempenaersa; ta je ustvaril album z naslovom Spomenik, v katerem je zbranih 26 fotografij jugoslovanskih spomenikov. Podobe teh spomenikov so na spletu pritegnile veliko pozornosti, vendar se avtor s samim konte- kstom ni kaj dosti ukvarjal, pač pa se je odločil, da bo slike preprosto samo oštevilčil. Ob slikah niso bila navedena nobena imena spomenikov, niti ni bil podrobneje opredeljen njihov namen. Lahko bi trdili, da je šlo pri tem za tipično kolonialni pristop: tu imamo nekaj nenavadnega, nekaj, kar nima imena … Kaj pa, če bi to poimenovali »kenguru«? Po drugi strani pa so te privlačne podobe »neke drugačne ideologije« privabile veliko turistov. To je kot Indiana Jones – na Balkanu se skriva nekaj zanimivega in jaz bom prvi, ki bo to odkril. Obstaja pa tudi že spletna stran, poimenovana Podatkovna baza spomenikov, kjer so evidentirani vsi spomeniki. To spletno stran ureja ameriški biolog, ki resnično ceni vrednost spomeni- kov in ki je o njih zbral izjemno veliko informacij. Vendar je takšen odnos hkrati tudi nekako pokroviteljski: »tu imate nekaj posebnega in pravzaprav tega niste sposobni ceniti in upravljati, torej vam bom pri tem pomagal in določene stvari opravil namesto vas«. Nisem pa popolnoma prepričana, ali resnično razume oziroma ali sploh želi razumeti politično in družbeno kom- pleksnost te regije, kar tudi prispeva k temu, da se te spomenike obravnava na takšen način. Zaveda pa se, da so ti spomeniki dovolj privlačni za eksklu- zivna turistična potovanja. Ali ne gre tudi pri tem za neke vrste kulturo spominjanja? Želela bi si, da bi na to vprašanje lahko odgovorila pritrdilno, a žal menim, da gre pri tem zgolj za še eno turistično nišo ali trend, ki se ne razlikuje kaj dosti od turističnih potovanj na osamljene otoke v Jadranskem morju ali obiskov srednjeveških cerkva. Gre le za nekoliko večjo stopnjo originalno- sti, a vendarle tu le obstaja pomembna razlika: ti spomeniki nas spominja- jo in opominjajo na tragične in travmatične dogodke ne tako davne zgodo- vine. Pri tem gre pogosto za grobove in kostnice, in tudi nekateri od preži- velih so še vedno živi. To zelo spominja na teme, povezane s selfiji na temo holokavsta ipd. Spomenik žrtvam holokavsta, ki ga je zasnoval ameriški arhitekt Peter Eisenman, je prav tako atrakcija; ljudje na njem delajo tako imenovane selfi skoke. Eisenmanov spomenik ni v nevarnosti in tudi v njegovi sporočilnosti ni ni- česar spornega. Nič ne bi imela proti nadzorovanemu turizmu, ki bi omo- gočal pretok denarja, in sicer tako, da bi s prihodki od obiska spomenikov financirali njihovo obnovo in javne izobraževalne programe. Ali ste v stiku z ministrstvom? Bilo je zelo težko, skorajda nemogoče, da bi svoje raziskave povezala s praktičnim delom na spomenikih. Gre za strukturni problem, ki se ne na- naša zgolj na to specifično vrsto dediščine. Sodelovanje se pogosto zgodi na individualni ravni, pri čemer gre za sodelovanje s strokovnjaki za kultur- no dediščino, ki delajo v oddelkih za ohranjanje dediščine. Vse, kar vem, je to, da obstaja proces notranje revizije, katerega namen je zmanjšati število spomenikov druge svetovne vojne, ki so na seznamu. Mnogih izmed teh spomenikov pa na seznamu sploh ni, a jih bodo kljub temu odstranili. Ali razstava v Muzeju moderne umetnosti (MoMA) ni imela nobenega učinka? Pri tej razstavi sem sodelovala kot članica svetovalnega odbora, in ne kot kuratorka. Želim si, da bi razstava lahko prikazala širši spekter raznolikosti spomenikov, se bolj osredotočila na njihov družbeni pomen in jih prikazala kot prostore spomina na pretekle dogodke ter da se ne bi toliko osredoto- čala zgolj na izjemne arhitekturne primerke. Vendar bi morala biti potem v celoti drugače zastavljena, in nisem prepričana, da bi bilo v muzeju MoMA tovrstno razstavo sploh mogoče postaviti. V okviru te razstave je bilo zelo Martin Reichert 48 arhitektov bilten • architect's bulletin • 224 • 225 • 226 • 227 have significant implications for its recognition and possibly their preserva- tion as well. However, I am afraid none of this helps the local people to make sense of these sites as important places of social and political memory, or make use of them. A positive outcome of this project is the networking among experts from former Yugoslavia. In November, for example, some of us are meeting again on the occasion of the Piran Days of Architecture in Slovenia. It is also a process of our finding out what these monuments really mean and how we can contribute to their preservation, and how to bring more stakeholders into the process. Ms Horvatinčić, in the beginning, we wanted to know your first memory - what would you like to experience in the future? On the one hand, as an art historian, I wish that the exceptional artistic and architectural quality of these memorials becomes acknowledged. But it is not enough to publish an art history study and close the chapter. It's about pertinent social issues and meanings that reach into the present day, and these meanings are contained in all sorts of material traces and local memories, not just architectural or sculptural interpretations of past events. I have one particular example in mind, a memorial commemorat- ing a Partisan hospital in the forest here in Drežnica, Croatia. For me, it is a symbol of caring and of solidarity, where during the war, a great many refugees had been taken care of. Today, this monument is located in the immediate vicinity of the Balkan migratory route. Under the present cir- cumstances, it can become a vehicle to transfer a significant historical memory in such a way to develop a more humane attitude towards con- temporary refugees. I wish such qualities of monuments should receive more acknowledgement and attention than their formal aspects. težko osvetliti kulturo spominjanja ali izpostaviti problem odprte konfronta- cije s politiko, ki je odgovorna za trenutno stanje predstavljene kulturne dediščine. A vendarle je v mnogih drugih ozirih razstava vsekakor pomemb- na in izjemna. Navsezadnje sedaj veliko več ljudi po vsem svetu ve, da je obstajala tudi jugoslovanska modernistična arhitektura. Ta razstava je na globalni ravni nedvomno veliko prispevala k uveljavitvi ju- goslovanske modernistične arhitekturne dediščine, kar lahko pripomore k njeni prepoznavnosti in – morda – tudi njeni ohranitvi. Pa vendarle to žal nič ne prispeva k temu, da bi lokalno prebivalstvo lahko te kraje izkoristilo kot pomembna mesta družbenega in političnega spomina. Pozitivna plat tega projekta pa je vsekakor mreženje oz. sodelovanje med strokovnjaki iz nekdanje Jugoslavije. V novembru se bomo znova srečali v Sloveniji, na Pi- ranskih dnevih arhitekture. Za nas to pomeni tudi proces, s katerim skuša- mo ugotoviti, kaj ti spomeniki sploh v resnici pomenijo, kako lahko prispe- vamo k njihovi ohranitvi in kako v ta proces vključiti več interesnih skupin. Gospa Horvatinčić, na začetku intervjuja ste opisali svoj najzgodnejši spomin iz otroštva. Kaj pa je tisto, kar bi želeli doživeti v prihodnosti? Kot umetnostna zgodovinarka si želim, da bi tem spomenikom priznali nji- hovo izjemno umetniško in arhitekturno vrednost. Vendar to še ne zado- stuje za to, da bi lahko izdali umetnostnozgodovinsko študijo in to poglavje zaključili. Pomembno vlogo imajo tudi relevantni družbeni problemi in pomeni, ki so aktualni tudi v sedanjosti. Te pomene lahko najdemo v raz- ličnih materialnih sledeh in lokalnih spominih, in ne zgolj v arhitekturni ali skulpturni interpretaciji preteklih dogodkov. V mislih imam poseben pri- mer, spomenik, posvečen spominu na partizansko bolnišnico v gozdu pri Drežnici na Hrvaškem. Zame je ta spomenik simbol solidarnosti, saj so med vojno tam oskrbeli na tisoče beguncev. Danes je spomenik v neposredni bližini balkanske begunske poti. V sedanjih okoliščinah lahko postane sred- stvo za prenos pomembnega zgodovinskega spomina ter tako prispeva k razvoju bolj humanega odnosa do sodobnih migracij in beguncev. Želim si, da bi več pozornosti namenili tovrstnemu pomenu teh spomenikov in da se ne bi toliko posvečali zgolj njihovim formalnim vidikom. Skupno. Posebno. Posamično. / Shared. Particular. Individual.